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Post by
xaratherus
xaratherus said:
I've actually gone back on my level 80 several times since WotLK came out - mostly because I thought some of the fights were fun. Same reason why I've gone back to do SSC, AQ, LBRS, UBRS, and so on.
Edited for emphasis. Notice the lack of "we" or even "most Lvl80s," since you cannot officially speak for everyone.
So it's okay for
you
to speak for everyone and say that no one does raids to see content? That's what your response seems to state. You can't speak for the majority - neither can I, nor was I trying to.
If anything, the person I responded to seemed to be more implying that everyone raided for gear.
Pre-WotLK our guild regularly ran raids for undergeared guild members so that they could actually see Kara/ZA and the other raids. We had two groups last night that decided to have a speed contest and see who could more quickly clear Kara. We're going to do a Hyjal run this weekend, and ran BT 2 weeks ago for the nostalgia factor.
My intent was to point out that not everyone raids for gear - call shenanigans all you like, but that doesn't make it any less true that some players play for the fun of it, and not the shiny epics. Nor did I try to imply that "everyone" raids just to see the content - to the contrary, I know quite well that isn't true. There's nothing wrong with raiding for gear.
My argument is that all the doomsayers who are screaming about how this change will bring about the end of the world, and is so unfair, are just that - doomsayers, who in the end probably won't be as negatively affected by this as they fear.
Achievements don't make someone good. Neither does gear.
Some people just suck. And it's those people that will suffer when 3.2 hits and all the skilled casuals get geared up to par.
QFT. Even skill doesn't make someone a good raider. For instance, the "angry raid leader" (Troxxes?) sound bytes - that guy may be great skill-wise at the game, but I don't care how good he is, I would never raid with him because the guy is a %^&*. If it's fair to say that raids should be challenging, it's just as equally fair in my book to say that they should be
fun
- otherwise, what's the point?
Post by
303016
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269367
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Post by
183177
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Post by
lonewarrior
If it's fair to say that raids should be challenging, it's just as equally fair in my book to say that they should be fun - otherwise, what's the point?
Agree the game should be fun..but "fun" is such a subjective word.
Making the game fun for one person can take it away from another.
WoW..was established with a particular way of playing.
It appealed to a certain sector of the gaming population. Did it appeal to everyone.? no! Should it try to appeal to everyone..no.
Being in the business world I learned one rule of the thumb early on.."when you try to cater to everyone..you cater to no one".
It seems that Blizz is trying to cater to everyone.
I know quite a few hi-level geared players who stop playing because the contents part of the game had become so easy..it lost its distinction. To these players..it was fun to face the difficult challanges of Kara..BT..Sunwell.
We have all seen the few players who managed to acquire legendary gear. It symbolized that person perseverance.
It wouldn't be legendary gear anymore if everyone had one.
Epic gear use to symbolize a distinct achievement..now everyone is epic..it's the new blue.
Isn't it funny that it is harder for a level 70 to do raids then a level 80. How many just turn 70's can do Kara..Gruul or BT...hardly any. I have just turn 80's ..buying their epics and doing Naxx..VoA first boss and OS and succeeding by the bushel.
Now some people might say that making raiding that hard doesn't sound like fun..that seems more like a chore..and from their point of view they may be right. But it was Blizz that established the initial parameters of the game that made it appeal to certain types of players..now it seems as if they are telling those players.."sorry we are homogenizing the game so that everyone is a winner"...Hmmm!
When I was a little league player...only the players on the championship team got a trophy. Now,as a little league coach, they give a trophy to every player just for being in the league.
Being a champ has lost it distinction..but I guess that makes it more "fun" :)
Post by
Vath
And as someone else said, it's going to !@#$ me off when I see scrubs with similar gear to me, since I worked hard for mine, and I'm not even THAT geared yet.
This is exactly what all the QQ is about. Honestly, shut. up. This is not directed to this single poster, but everyone who uses this argument. Simply bask in the light that you are most likely a better player than that "scrub" with the same gear. You did it the hard way, feel better about your self that you got to see the content and you got to kill the bosses. The way is "supposed" to be done. And who knows, that "scrub" might actually be a good player worthy of that gear and simply isn't able to raid hardcore.
I'm a perfect example. While I agree this could have been handled much better, I'm never going to be able to sit down and do a full clear of Ulduar in a night. Just too busy. Video games for me are a way to chill out after work or after an otherwise long day. I'd wager that almost half the players who play this game are the same way. They're giving everyone an opportunity to get the best gear they can. And like others have said, there's only so much you can buy with badges. A lot of the best stuff still will only drop from bosses in the raid.
All this whining doesn't do anyone's personal character any good. The career heroic'ers/occasional raiders if they're lucky outnumber the hardcore raiders. They always have and always will. Accept the fact that some people have to gear up "the easy way" in order to actually enjoy this game.
Post by
193873
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Post by
awarewolf
In WOW, raid prestige comes from getting the best gear FIRST, not for it to be exclusive to you for all time.
That's just the way it works. There is no permanence. Eventually, all the gear you worked so hard to get will be easier for non-raiders to get.
If you're not content with being the first on the block to get the best gear, and eventually allowing it to trickle down to non-raiders, then you're in for a heap of disappointment down the road.
Post by
334295
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Post by
alfista
Well, I'm playing since the release of WoTLK. I can understand the people that dislikes the upcoming patch, but I can see the logic behind it.
And in my personal situation, I really welcome it. I love to raid, but I'm not in a raiding guild, so my only choices are heroics and the occasional raid. Gear obtained from reputation grinding doesn't seem to have prestige with most people.
The thing I think is disgusting, is how difficult is to newer players like me obtain access to the newer raid content. There is certain step missing in going from heroics to raids. Maybe the problem is my guild, or my guild, but I checked some guilds where they asked you to be in full naxx quality gear, and they mainly raid naxx...
I welcome this, but I would to see more good gear that could be obtained via reputation grinding, obviously no something too easy. Just something to reward the people who invest time in that.
Post by
Furret
I really have to agree with the QQ on this one, and let me explain why.
Blizzard since the release of WotLK has decided that they were going to offer an "easy" and "hard" mode (10 and 25 man) for each raid to appeal to the different people that play, and that's good, nothing wrong with that, great idea.
They offered separate emblems for various tiers of difficulty to balance the rewards based on the difficulty at hand, another great idea.
I raid 25 Ulduar each week hoping to gear myself, refine my playstyle, and also to learn more tricks and strategies for the next tier of 25 man content, and also to satisfy my competitive nature (as is the nature of humanity, really) of being better geared than others thereby being able to showcase my skill at playing this game (my trophy, so to speak).
Let me liken this to sports, as many people should follow this analogy.
Basically what Blizzard is doing here is taking the crappy team that can't win a game either through lack of skill or dedication and giving them free points and letting them all into the semi-finals (and I'm sure the finals, down the road) without them having to hardly work for it. They are simply changing the whole reward structure so that no one feels excluded and "EVERYONE'S A WINNER!"...
Where's the challenge and fun, and to question Blizzard's motive more directly, "where's the longevity?" if you're hand fed everything? If you really want to have the game be this easy you should probably just play on a private server w/ triple xp and gold drops, and leave the game how it is.
I'll leave you with a question: "If everyone's a winner, does anyone
really
win?"
discuss...
Post by
xaratherus
Basically what Blizzard is doing here is taking the crappy team that can't win a game either through lack of skill or dedication and giving them free points and letting them all into the semi-finals (and I'm sure the finals, down the road) without them having to hardly work for it. They are simply changing the whole reward structure so that no one feels excluded and "EVERYONE'S A WINNER!"...
I disagree with the metaphor.
What Blizzard is doing is taking the people who like to play baseball, but can't dedicate the majority of their free time to it, and letting them get their hands on Major League-quality bats, mitts, and helmets, then letting them go play a pick-up game at Wrigley Field.
Some of them may actually turn out to be decent at hitting or pitching - and some of them may throw like little girls and scream when a ball comes their way - but now everyone gets an at-bat.
I'll leave you with a question: "If everyone's a winner, does anyone really win?"
discuss...
This makes the assumption that having gear makes you a winner. That's false. That's the baseball player who plays for the money instead of for love of the game. Being able to down the bosses successfully makes you a winner - and this change does not take that away from the folks who have come before and already downed the Ulduar pantheon.
Post by
lonewarrior
I disagree with the metaphor.
What Blizzard is doing is taking the people who like to play baseball, but can't dedicate the majority of their free time to it, and letting them get their hands on Major League-quality bats, mitts, and helmets, then letting them go play a pick-up game at Wrigley Field.
I have to disagree with this. The reason being..bats,mitts and balls aren't major league items..but a uniform is. Should we call everyone who can get their hands on a Cub uniform a major league player and let them play in Wrigley..?
WoW gear is like a uniform..only the best and dedicated players should be wearing Ulduar type gear or you dilute the game just to accommodate everyone.
Now I don't say this a hardcore raider...I am the quintessential casual player..who has sloooowly grind his way through the raids of Naxx,OS,VoA and some Ulduar for gear.Yep it is frustrating at times..but the difficulty is part of the lure, at least for me. The foundation of this game is all about achievement/reward. The next one being more difficult from the last. Letting people repeat previous achievements and then rewarding them the next level up..just doesn't make sense.
For those who argue...that casual players so be able to gear up and experience Naxx, Ulduar and beyond the same as hardcore players..my response is how in the heck did you get to level 80 anyway..? You must have put in some play time..and if your going to do repetitive heroic runs for emblems..again..your going to have to dedicate a decent amount of time. So people who call themselves casual players are maybe not so casual after all.
Perhaps what Blizz is addressing is the lazy player...and god knows ..we have a ton of those playing.
Post by
331887
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
windstrum
The only reason to raid naxx (be it 10 or 25) would be for a weapon and better trinkets.
Or, you know, for seeing the content and having fun while at it.
no one will actually do this..
It will be a TBC repeat of farming kara and heroics non stop then hopping into black temple
^ this
My guild ran Kara for fun. I guess we're in the minority? Or is it you?
Post by
windstrum
I really have to agree with the QQ on this one, and let me explain why.
Blizzard since the release of WotLK has decided that they were going to offer an "easy" and "hard" mode (10 and 25 man) for each raid to appeal to the different people that play, and that's good, nothing wrong with that, great idea.
I hate to burst your bubble, but 25 man raids are not "hard" mode. They're merely heroic.
Post by
107419
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Post by
331887
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Post by
Furret
I really have to agree with the QQ on this one, and let me explain why.
Blizzard since the release of WotLK has decided that they were going to offer an "easy" and "hard" mode (10 and 25 man) for each raid to appeal to the different people that play, and that's good, nothing wrong with that, great idea.
I hate to burst your bubble, but 25 man raids are not "hard" mode. They're merely heroic.
True, and that's why they put hard modes in for some of the bosses with enhanced loot. However, if you compare the difficulty of 10 man uld to 25 man uld I would say that my description is accurate. It likely stems from the difficulty in organizing 15 extra people, but at that point we would argue semantics.
Post by
218900
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