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Problems downing Ignis
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Post by
windstrum
Hi guys. I'm after some suggestions on Ignis, from those of you Almighty and Knowledgeable, who have successfully downed Ignis, particularly in 10man Ulduar.
I'll start with our group make-up. This was our group last night, when we tried for hours to get this guy down, was:
3 Tanks
Prot Pally
Frost DK
Frost DK
3 Healers
Resto Shaman (me)
Holy Priest
Holy
Discipline Priest (undergeared)
4 DPS
Lock
Lock
Mage
Frost DK
At the moment, we're lucky to get Ignis to 75%. The problems seem to be two-fold:
The tanks on the adds are having trouble getting them "molten" in a timely manner
Us 3 healers can't keep up with the damage
After close to 8 attempts with minor adjustments to strategy, we shuffled the group around slighty. The Prot Pally switched to Holy and became a fourth healer. This left just the two DK tanks, one on the adds and one for the boss.
This effectively removed the second problem. With the holy pally on the MT, it was far, far easier keeping the raid and slag-pot victim alive. But this still left us with the first problem, and even made it slightly worse.
The OT's are complaining that, mainly, the adds are hard to pick up. Quite often us healers are taking aggro on newly-spawned adds, and the OT('s) are still preoccupied with the previous few.
What are we doing wrong? The DK's are essentially on their own with "trapping" the adds in the Scorch. The Mage (who's responsible for destroying the adds when they become brittle) is helping a little, but not a great deal. Are the DK's failing? Or do they need more help from the DPS? Is our group makeup wrong?
Any tips you can give would be very highly appreciated.
Edit: I can't seem to count, forgot one of our DPS - (yet) another frost DK. Added to the list.
Edit 2: One of our priests is in fact Discipline, not Holy. Updated to reflect this.
Post by
Haxzor
you only need 2 tanks
the adds should be taken into the Scorches immediately.
I don't really know about it too much as I'm dps, but we rock this with 2 heals.
Post by
218900
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Post by
windstrum
Thanks for the replies guys.
noyb, I think you might have hit the nail on the head, very sound advice it seems. I'll speak to our lovely OT's, but I'll have to broach the subject carefully, as to not insult their ability. :)
We're a pretty close-knit group though, so it shouldn't be a problem. But we had a bit of a frustrating time last night, and were nipping at eachother's nerves a little.
In regards to the healing situation though, if we had the same group of players, a 3-tank setup would leave us one healer "short". Should we rather replace one of our DPS with a tank, and keep our 4 healer setup (being myself plus the holy paladin and two holy priests)?
Post by
219211
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Post by
windstrum
IMO you have too many healers and tanks. 2 tanks and 2 healers are enough, but you can bring 3 for safety. You definitely need only 1 OT.
OT should be DK. His job is simple - take an add, get some aggro on it, then kite it into the fire and chains of ice mob there. Keep chaining till it is molten, then taunt it, bring it to water and have somebody break it. That's all, rinse and repeat. Good DK OT barely takes any damage.
MT should be tanking boss in the middle, so that ranged are close to water where adds are being broken. He also needs to put fires in different places and make sure he is not standing in them. There are multiple way of doing that, we do the following (X represents boss and raid, O represents where the fires are kept on ground):
W A T E R
O---------O
| |
| x |
| |
O---------O
W A T E R
Thanks Gesha. In regards to only having two healers, there's no way that could work for us. We're all 10man Naxx geared, with only the odd 25 man item thrown in from pugs we've run individually. But we're a 10-man raiding guild, so that's the limitations on our gear. With 3 healers we had trouble keeping everyone up (I was OOM by 75% without replenishment), so 2 definitely would not work.
As far as the layout you gave, that's exactly what we're doing. The raid is standing on X, while the tank moves Ignis to each of the corners of the imaginary square, leaving a Scorch in each corner. The tank has his movement down pat. I think our issue is almost definitely down to failing healers or failing off tanks.
I appreciate your tip on how the OT DK should be doing it though. I know they're using Chains of Ice at least once per add, but whether or not they're chaining it I'm not sure. I'll suggest this to them. Thanks again.
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181645
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187275
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Post by
QuestionC
Ever since they nerfed Ignis's damage 6 times, I've never seen a group fail on for a reason other than the Off-Tank messing up.
Post by
260787
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303152
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Post by
Thror
The tactic my raid uses:
1 tank - feral druid (me)
2-3 healers - any... we have all classes available
7-6 dps - any.
Here is a
picture
that illustrates the way we do it. (i know its not very graphical, i wanted to do it fast)
So the tactics is... Healers heal. DPS do their work, they stand behind ignis. Tank stands in the scorched area ALL the time. Tank tanks the boss. Tank has his camera zoomed out at maximum range and watches out for incoming adds. There are only two ways the adds can run, to the tank, or to the dps group, and the tank should be aware of both. The tank should taunt the incoming add, and add some kind of a ranged aggro skill (fearie fire, shield, throw, or an ice touch). The add will come to the tank, and the tank will use a couple AoE skills just to get better aggro. Then the tank tanks both Ignis and the add IN the fire. The add gets heated up and melts. The tank has to aggro him again, because he resets when he becomes molten. With the molten add, the tank goes into the second position. The add follows him into the water, but ignis doesnt move thanks to his size. The boss is only turned 90 degrees in this process. After the add has been put into water, one assigned ranged dps shoots it down while the tank returns to the primary position, and awaits another add.
This tactic requires a tank with good situational awareness, a good gear, and also good healers. The tank has to react fast to the new adds incoming. An add should never melee anyone else than the tank.
If you have aggro trouble, tell your Rogues and Hunters that Tricks of the Trade / Misdirect only have a 30 second cooldown. They might be surprised by the fact. They can help you a lot with the aggro. Anyway, good dps will never pull aggro in this fight. Either the tank can generate aggro pretty well, or they can put their own aggro management skills to good use.
The boss is a breeze really. We got the timed kill achievement with blue-geared DPS. (well some of them)
This tactic is not worth using in Heroic btw. Adds spawn too fast, 2 tanks can handle the fight perfectly, and 1 less healer/dps will not hurt you in HC.
Post by
anywherenotes
Thanks for the replies guys.
noyb, I think you might have hit the nail on the head, very sound advice it seems. I'll speak to our lovely OT's, but I'll have to broach the subject carefully, as to not insult their ability. :)
We're a pretty close-knit group though, so it shouldn't be a problem. But we had a bit of a frustrating time last night, and were nipping at eachother's nerves a little.
In regards to the healing situation though, if we had the same group of players, a 3-tank setup would leave us one healer "short". Should we rather replace one of our DPS with a tank, and keep our 4 healer setup (being myself plus the holy paladin and two holy priests)?
Yes, you definately don't want to insult their ability, this fight is a lot about offtanking.
I regularly offtank it in 10 and 25 man. In 10 man we use 1 offtank, in 25 man we use 2. Anything more usually leads to fighting for the mob and isn't productive at all. (I would have one of your tanks dps on this one)
You want your best-paying-attention tank for this, MT'ing is easier attention-wise on this fight. (but offtanking really doesn't require much gear)
Tell your offtank to zoom out, I don't have the command for it here, but it's something that increases max zoom out by a lot, you have to look it up.
Generally entire group should be in center, except MT and melee, which move with the boss.
This makes it easy for offtank to see when an add is running up to the healers, and MT can grab add if it's next to him (boss usually blocks the view of the off-tank, so that's really the only hard part).
Once offtank grabs add, he has to run to the last molten ground. if he just runs to the closer one, it may go away before add turns molten.
You want to assign 1 dps to kill brittle adds, and one backup dps to help him, if first one is in pot. Off-tank can also be put in pot, it happened only once to me so far, but it can happen, in which case your trusty dps-dk can tank add until offtank is released.
Do not pull out army-of-undead until you no longer want to off-tank adds. They screw up offtanking big time.
Now some tanking tips:
1 - after add becomes molten and before he starts moving again, drop D&D on it, and run to water. When add wakes up, D&D will do damage to him, and he'll follow DK. (if you have paladin offtank it, he can drop concecration, other tanks can put any of their dots on add)
2 - when standing on molten ground, pop magic shield each time, or icebound fortitude to reduce damage.
Post by
Thror
You mean...
/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4
Post by
Lorkin
Too bad you don't have a warrior as a tank. We run with 2 tanks, and 2 healers. If you need, you can run with 3 healers if heals aren't that high. The OT needs to pick up the adds, stand in the flames, then move them out to the water. Usually the mage would be in charge of destroying the adds. Be sure they know to wait till everyone's out of range because the adds blow up and deal significant damage once they die.
A warrior helps because we can charge/intercept/intervene out of range of the add once its put into the water. Be sure the OT places the add in the water in the opposite side of the boss, else people take damage. You have to one shot the add so typically a mage does this. It's all about coordination and sometimes luck when it comes to who gets into the pot.
Post by
Thuya
Too bad you don't have a warrior as a tank.
This is seriously qft right here. Between all the various taunts and charges that warriors get, they are the best OT's for this fight you could possibly have. Put that prot buff (the name escapes me atm) on the MT and every time they get hit it refreshes the warrior's taunt cooldown and bam. No more add problems.
Our group uses the 2 tank, 3 healer method, and since we switched the warrior from MT to OT, we haven't had a problem since.
Post by
4466
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Post by
Thuya
Except that Vigilance drains off 10% of the target's threat and may cause issues for DPS. The only tank class that truly has any advantage on this fight is DKs for offtanking, thanks to Chains of Ice (for keeping adds in scorches), and Death Grip (for yoinking them into the water). A well enough geared DK can even take care of shattering the Brittle golems as well (but so could any other tank).
While I agree that DKs do also have many great abilities to aid in that fight, I have to disagree with your vigilance point (thanks for the name of the buff btw. hehe).
I know that 10% threat is big, but if your tank is that close to being overrun by the dps on this moving fight, there's other issues that need to be explored besides just the OT. There are certain fights where threat is massive due to buffs and other issues, but this fight isn't one of them...
It would seem that just like most other things, there really isn't a 'right' answer and any OT could do it. Our group uses a warrior, your group uses a DK. At the end of the day, we both win. :)
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